Exhibit A – Baptist Pastor Comparing the NIV against the King James Bibl
Author: Bobby Valentine | Filed under: Bible, Exegesis, Hermeneutics, Jesus, Ministry, Preaching, SectarianismI almost apologize for posting this to my blog … if you can handle nine minutes and 52 seconds!! But this is a teaching illustration.
Ok. If you made it through that painful video you may have the gift of patience!! Some one pointed me to this video and I watched it and found myself with raised blood pressure by the end. Let me suggest to my readers that our pastor is exhibit A of why we need to read a book or books that help us understand and interpret the Bible.
First, the whole KJV only thing is based on pure ignorance. This is painfully evident in this video and I honestly feel sorry for the poor folks who had to endure such tripe.
Second, the pastor goes on and on about the “word” and how we need to value the “word” and how the Gospel of John stresses the “word” by beginning with “Word” and has Jesus testifying to the “word.” Well I am on record as loving the “word.” We agree on the importance of the word. His attack on the NIV or NASB however is totally unfounded. Since he is a KJV only guy I limited myself to the The Greek Text of Stephens published in 1550 which is the base text for the King James and the Textus Receptus. It is quite true that the NIV does not read “when Jesus had spoken these words” but rather “when Jesus had finished praying.” I was “shocked” after all that rhetoric to find that the KJV did just as much paraphrasing in John 18.1 as the NIV. The word “word” does not occur in John 18.1. Rather the text reads tauta eipon ho Iesosous ekelthen sun tois mathetais auton ... which quite literally says “having said these THINGS Jesus went out with his disciples.”
Third, how big is the Kidron Brook in John 18.1? The pastor suggests that Jesus and his disciples took a BOAT across it! There has to be water because it is a brook. I almost chocked on my Dr. Pepper when I heard this. You might be able to put a canoe on the Jordan but unless it is a battery operated boat for the tub there will be no boats on the Kidron Brook. The Kidron is a seasonal wadi. A wadi is a word used for many “rivers” in Palestine that flow only a few months of the year during the rainy season (winter). For those of us in the desert we might call it a “wash.” When the rain comes there is water … no rain no water.
If we claim to respect the word of God … which does not equate to the King James only … we will take seriously its context. If we don’t take that seriously we can spend nearly 10 minutes talkinga about how a version is wrong when the one your looking at is “wrong” too. But neither the KJV nor the NIV is wrong. Jesus did finish saying these “things” that is the words in chapter 17. And the NIV is quite right too. Jesus did finish his prayer. And Jesus did cross the Kidron Valley but did not use a boat. He used a boat on the Sea of Galilee.
If we respect the word of God we will respect its historical context. We will learn (be disciples) as much as we can about that context, setting and the like. And finally if we respect the word of God we will know that Jesus did not speak Jacobean English!
Again sorry for the video but it illustrates the point so well …
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
P.S. for the record I did not come up with the title “Baptist Pastor …” that is how this gentleman has himself put it on YouTube. Just so you know I am not picking on him here …
September 5th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Is this the same guy that says Europeans are going to hell because they supposedly urinate in a sitting position? I don’t want to watch that video again if I don’t have to.
September 5th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Pastor Anderson (the guy in the video) holds no college degree. I feel sorry for him actually. It seems he is sincere and committed but also ignorant. Perhaps he should have prepared for this ministry for longer than 1 day…
I also was a bit heated after hearing his pathetic defense of the KJV. Very sad.
September 5th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
His name is Stephen Anderson. Look him up on youtube for the Him that pisseth against the wall video. That one will knock your socks off.
September 5th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Nick,
It was the same guy.
Crazy.
Bobby,
Thanks for sharing this with us.
I don’t understand how anyone can throw out the orginal greek. I have been enjoying the Message by Eugene H. Peterson. It is translated by one man too. 🙂
September 6th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Hey Bobby, isn’t this guy in the Phoenix area? And aren’t there other great preachers in that area like John Waddey? Lucky guy, to be surrounded by so many ‘great’ preachers!
I think I’ll stay away from there…I don’t want the heat to suck out my brains like it seems has happened with this guy.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:08 am
Yes John Waddey is in Surprise which is a suburb of Phx. He devoted two issues of his little “journal” on John Mark and my book, Kingdom Come. It was not very friendly to say the least.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:12 am
In all my life I have only heard one argument for using the KJV that held any water for me. As an arrogant, know it all teen, I used to pick at my grandfather for using the KJV. He was a preacher in Pennsylvania and every time he taught or read aloud from the word he used the KJV. Even his prayers were in KJV.
One day I guess he had enough and he told me he had nothing against the newer translations. It was that he had spent his whole life memorizing large sections of the Bible and the newer translations messed with his memory work.
Having been proud of myself for memorizing John 3:16 and thinking that was an accomplishment, I had no come back. Grandfathers are good at gently putting us in our place sometimes. He was a great Christian man with an open mind to various translations but a preference born of the era in which he was born and a dedication to the Word which he loved.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:58 am
Well, you read his wife’s blog and she’s against McCain’s VP pick, too. So, apparently it’s a sin for a man to pee sitting, a sin for anyone to read NIV, and a sin for a woman to aspire to a leadership position.
LOL– did I say that?
Gotta go find that “against the wall” video…
September 6th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Wow… this guy is a serious ID10T.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Here is the URL that MattDabbs referred to in connection with Stephen Anderson’s sermon on what happens to those males who “pisseth against the wall” as they are biblically required to do on pain of hell:
Pastor Anderson notes in horror that there are even pastors who are “sitters.”
Absolutely astonishing in his mindless rant, but at least Anderson has the redeeming quality of being entertaining, however inadvertant.
Jim Wyly
September 7th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
He is not represenative of all Baptists, of course you know that.
I once asked a KJV only guy (who was also a Baptist) why the Chinese don’t deserve a Bible. “Well they do brother.., they need the word just like we do.” was the answer.
Then he started to realize the folly of his position. When you translate it into Chinese it is not KJV any longer. The same principal applies to evolving English language as well.
For the record I am an ESV guy. I believe it to be the best on the market right now.
But, as the old sage from the hills of N.C. once quipped “If the King James Version was good enough for the Apostle Paul it’s good enough for me”. How can you argue with that logic?
Royce
September 8th, 2008 at 3:05 am
It seems that several people have already beat me to recommending his video about Him That Pisseth Against The Wall…it’s a true classic.
I will say that on one hand, it’s easy to try and look down on him. On the other hand, this guy is working on memorizing the entire Bible, and has already committed much of it to memory. I think he may be misguided in several ways, but I have to respect his dedication.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:43 am
HOPE YOU FEELING GOOD
BLESSINGS AS ALWAYS TO YOU AND YOUR’S
RICH IN CA.
you might like to download a copy it is a free one
Get your own copy of the NET Bible
NET BIBLE . COM
oop’s
Bobby there are the reasons that I believe the NIV Bible belongs in the trash, It has in my opinion strong leanings to a faith only concept. Example, In Gal. 2:15-21 you find that it is all aboout faith in Christ. Witch takes the objective gender, instead of the subjective gender. Witch is, Faithfullness of Christ.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Thought I might put these up for you these are the translation notes from Romans 321 faith in or of Christ
28 tn Or “faith in Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti” Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 26; Gal 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “Πίστις Χριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29; Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32; Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor 10:15; Phil 2:17; Col 1:4; 2:5; 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10; 2 Thess 1:3; Titus 1:1; Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21; 2 Pet 1:5). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.
sn ExSyn 116, which notes that the grammar is not decisive, nevertheless suggests that “the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of faith in Christ as a Pauline concept (for the idea is expressed in many of the same contexts, only with the verb πιστεύω rather than the noun), but implies that the object of faith is a worthy object, for he himself is faithful.” Though Paul elsewhere teaches justification by faith, this presupposes that the object of our faith is reliable and worthy of such faith.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Richard, Boy you have a job on your hands if you are going to rewrite the whole body of Bible teaching tham sinners are set right with God by faith. Don’t forget to edit and rewrite what Jesus said of himself over and over and over.
You sir are way farther out in left field than the NIV. It is dangerous to twist scripture to support your pet doctrine whatever it is.
Royce
September 8th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Sorry Royce I just don’t get that or what you’re saying
what I put down are just some copies and translation notes from the new English translation Bible
I put Galatians 2:16 through 21 so that anyone could compare what the net Bible says with what the niv.says Word for Word and that’s why I consider the niv be a very liberal translation
in my opinion salvation by grace through faith that not of yourselves it’s the gift of God. is saying approximately the same thing, it’s about Christ and not about me, and about how God justified me through the faith of christ
and not how I am justified by believing in Christ
Thanks for the comment although
i’ll
wait on what Bobby’s got to say 🙂
blessings rich in California
September 8th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
AAAAggghhhhh! Thanks for the warning, I should have turned away!
September 8th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Hey Bobby-
Just watched your post and “him that pisseth against the wall”, truly cringe inducing. But I also cringed at the second comment “the guy holds no college degree”. Need to be real careful with that one.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I’m sure you’ve seen D. A. Carson’s The King James Version Debate. In my mind this is the book to hand or suggest for any KJV only person. However, one has to open the mind and read to get it.
Peace.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
He really reminds me of Jack from Lost. Watch those videos again with that thought in your head and you will get a nice chuckle out of it. The voice, look, mannerisms, everything almost match perfect.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I couldn’t watch all of that. Too 1950’s CoCesque
But he totally reminds me of Jack too. So funny.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Mark thanks for the comments. I was not intending to knock this guy for his zeal or lack of education. That he has memorized lots is great. And I do not insist that one has to have an M.Div from Harding Grad either. BUT I do insist that one needs to be engaged in the MINISTRY OF STUDY.
Rich,
The controversy of how to understand the objective vs subjective in Romans and Galatians (especially) post dates the initial work on the NIV by nearly a decade. It is a heated debate among Pauline scholars as I am sure you are aware. I know of no standard translation that has incorporated the New Perspective into translation.
Cheryl I agree … but in a sense it was good free entertainment.
Steve,
Carson’s book is very good. Another is James White’s THE KJV ONLY CONTROVERSY. Excellent book.
Thanks to everyone for the comments.
Shalom,
Bobby V
September 8th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Hey Bobby,
Don’t worry…I didn’t take you that way. I think I’m mostly trying to monitor my own thoughts. I think we can all see this guy’s flaws for what they are, but I don’t want to become the guy that prays and says, “God, aren’t you lucky to have me…I’m glad I’m not like THAT guy over there who is WAY off.”
I guess I’m trying to find things about him I appreciate without rationalizing his rough edges. His zeal is admirable…he just needs to adjust where he’s targeting it.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:00 am
jrb,
I was not trying to say one has to have a degree in Bible to have an opinion on spiritual matters. I was actually just quoting from this guy’s own website, in which he proudly states that he has no college degree and provides an essay explaining why having a degree in Bible is a bad thing. This head-in-the-sand mentality is an issue I know personally and it really gets under my skin.
In my opinion, a minister should have a degree if at all possible.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Man, I don’t read your blog for a (confessing blog sin here) few days and then look what I find. This is the eternal struggle between those who have post secondary Christian education and those who do not. What is a bit un-nerving is the pastor in the video flaunts the fact that he hasn’t gone to college.
I do believe there are for lack of a better phrase, “un-trained preachers” who are doing a good job for their churches. But when one knows he has limited education he should have enough common sense and humility to realize that there are some limitations that come with that status. Such as trying to make a case for or against a translation of the Bible.
Being a middle school math teacher I feel confident enough to lead folks to Christ and try to equip them for service. In the scholarly area of trying to break down the pluses and minuses of a particular Bible translation, I’ll leave that for the scholars.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:08 am
Ignorance is one thing. Dogmatic ignorance is another.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:15 am
After seeing this, I went outside, sat down and had a good pee … against a wall, of course!
September 10th, 2008 at 5:33 am
that is to funny dude!
September 10th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
ok…I watched the whole thing. I have added him to my list of people that includes Sarah Palin and John McCain…that every time I hear them speak I want to jab a pencil into my eardrum……………….
September 11th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Stoogelover, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Thanks for the stomach exercise!
September 12th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
I’m pretty sure that video is a joke, and a pretty funny one if I do say so myself 🙂
September 17th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Bobby, I think you have some new material for your Lectureship class next week in Abilene.